Improving The Breed

[JenvyBritts]

What do you think the breed as a whole needs to improve on?

What do you think they are doing well in (conformation wise)?

What do you strive for in your breeding program?

[JenvyBritts]

I'll throw one thing out there...

I think the breed needs improvement on gait. There are way too many dogs out there that hackney or flip. Its wasted movement and will cause them to tired much faster in the field, or any other activity.

Straight fronts are also a problem...which can, in some cases, be the cause of the hackney or flipping fronts.

Overall, I think the breed is in pretty good shape. We aren't seeing overly furnished show dogs, or any extremes. And with all the DCs popping up all over, its pretty obvious they havent lost instinct!

[blueridgkennels]

While straight fronts are somewhat of a problem, short upper arms, are really the cause of most of the hackney or flipping of the fronts. After being in this breed for over 20 years and training for both conformation and field, the biggest problem I see, is the increasing number of strickly show dogs. I have trained some of these show dogs and found a profound lack of basic instincts and stamina. If we keep up this trend, we will end up like all the other sporting breeds, 2 seperate dogs for show and field.

[kevin]

How about size? I dont do the show thing ( I sent Whizzy to a Pro for that) but my observation at the trials is that we have alot of Britts over the standard. Does anyone else see this?

[kninebirddog]

I do see many trial dogs that are on the bigger size....
I also have spoke with some show people and learned how dogs are taught to stack in if they are tall and how to get them to stand taller if they are on the smaller size...but I see for the most part the shows that I have been to that unless some one goees through a procedure judges rarely themselves wicket a dog that appears to tall or to small.

Hardest part is when you have a dog that is excelling in the field do you discard them as a stud or brood bitch and toss their talents out the window or if one is going for a dual to find a smaller mate that excells where one is weaker to hopefuly produce pups that fall in to being the Dual dog....


No dog is ever perfect..unless of course it is your personal dog but in turth every breeding should be putting dams and sires together that will have the best potential to have pups better then the parents

but then mother nature has ways to remind us we are only human

[touchofclassbritts]

Though I agree that we don't want to breed to an inferior dog just because they are 1/2 an inch shorter, I feel that our breed is no where close to that problem.
I understand breeding to an oversized dog if everything else available is substandard. But to support that arguement one must conclude that all other available dual quality brittany stud dogs across the country are incapable of performing at the same standard of the bigger dog.
Personally, I feel that there is a wonderful variety of standard meeting dogs out there that allow us to continue to breeding ever better dual dogs.
To force a dog to gain a title (teach them to measure in) defeats the purpose of the title of DC that encourages the breeding to better meet our breed standard, IMO.

[bigbirdhunter]

if the brittany is a dual dog then why would it be ok to bread a dog if it did not meet the standard? isn't this going against the whole idea of breeding dogs in the standard? If the brittany is truly a dual dog shouldn't all breeding animals meed the standard in the show and also be tested for hunting instincts?

[JenvyBritts]

First of all, being a show person myself, you cannt hide the dogs size completely. When you gait, the judge will see the dogs size, and when you free stack after gaiting. And if you have an under or oversized dog, theres only so much you can do to hide it. I mean, once the judge gets their hands on the dog, they will feel if you are hiding something...granted its a knowledgable judge.

On the breeding side...I dont think under or over sized dogs need to be bred. Even if their offspring are in standard, they will still have that gene and their offspring may be too big or small. And it will continue like that. I mean, unless its by half an inch or something...Im talking more about extremes, like 1 inch or more.

In keeping the breed DUAL, we need to all breed to the standard and stay true to the standard as well. The standard was written with the dual dog in mind, every thing in the standard is put there to make a dog that excels in the field. Anyone who has a great hunting dog, but would NEVER be able to be a show dog is not breeding to the standard, in my opinion. You should be able to look out and know immediately that thats a Brittany, not debate if its a Pointer, English Setter, etc.

Also, all those who say the show lines have instinct bred out of them...Take a look at our new National Amateur Gun Dog CH...hes a DC, from mainly show lines if I'm not mistaken. Look at many of the Futurity winners, they are from show lines. My bitch is from mostly show lines, with some DCs thrown in there, and she has more instinct then some field bred dogs! Definitely more drive and motivation. I'm not falling for the "show dogs have no instinct" thing, not in this breed.

[nveebritts]

Nov 25, 2008 13:11:41 GMT -5 touchofclassbritts said:

Though I agree that we don't want to breed to an inferior dog just because they are 1/2 an inch shorter, I feel that our breed is no where close to that problem.
I understand breeding to an oversized dog if everything else available is substandard. But to support that arguement one must conclude that all other available dual quality brittany stud dogs across the country are incapable of performing at the same standard of the bigger dog.
Personally, I feel that there is a wonderful variety of standard meeting dogs out there that allow us to continue to breeding ever better dual dogs.

This is a very good point. Our breed doesn't have a limited gene pool so there is no reason with all the wonderful dual dogs available (or even field champions that have good conformation & that are in standard) to continue to breed to dogs that are over standard. I'm currently showing a male that is probably about 19 1/2"-20" & I constantly get asked about my "miniature" Brittany. I think people are so used to seeing the bigger dog that having one in actually in standard seems to be unusual.

I also think that another reason its a bad idea to breed dogs that are of extreme size (over or under) is that it causes a lot of whelping problems. (example oversized male that most pups he sires has to be born by c-section which is not a common thing at all in our breed)

[jetto]

As far as the comments generalizing seeing bigger field dogs- I think alot of that depends on what area of the country you live in. We are in Ohio and trial in Ohio, PA, MI, IL, etc. and honestly I do not see THAT many oversize dogs at field trials. Some yes- but not an overabundance. Most of the dogs I see are average height and some smaller.

In fact I have a dog that is predominantly field/DC lines and he is a shortie. Two more dogs right off the top of my head that are also DC/Field lines are short like him also- all between 18" and 19". I think it really depends on where you are and what lines of dogs you are seeing on a regular basis. Some lines are naturally bigger than others. If you live in an area where certain stud dogs are used on a regular basis and they happen to be taller and produce taller- then yep you're going to think there are alot of tall dogs at field trials.

As far as the show lines retaining the instinct. Yes many do. However as with any dog- it still has to be PROVEN. There are many show people who put a JH on a dog or take them hunting once or twice and think we should all flock to them with our girls to be bred because they are "dual" quality. Not in my book. They still have to prove themselves in competition for me. Now that is just my opinion and I'm sure not shared by some. But I always want to go forward with my program- not backward. And breeding to or buying from dogs who have not field trialed is not how I want to progress. As far as showing- i can look at and go over a dog and know if they were capable of finishing in the show ring or not. You simply can't do that with field ability if you are looking for field TRIAL prospects. But as with everything else- we are all looking for something different and what in our mind is the "ideal".

Now if you want a real challenge- try a different breed than the Brittany- one that isn't nearly as "dual" as our breed and try to do the dual thing. Humbles you everytime! LOL! We are certainly lucky in our breed that so many people still pursue the dual and make sure our dogs stay bird dogs. Kristi

[bigbirdhunter]

So 'i have a question. If a person owns a dog oversized or undersized why to would they keep showing a dog if it does not meet the standard? Dont they have to be measured in competition in order to guaratntee that they are the correct size? As for show dogs and instinct....i have to disagree with you. The show dogs i have seen are not anywhere close to my dog or other brittanys that i have hunted over in the past...I think the breed is somewhat separated

[JenvyBritts]

Personally, I wouldnt show an over or undersized Brittany. If a judge does decide to measure, you'll be disqualified, and second, like you said, it is not in the standard and defeats the purpose of breeding to the standard then.

I guess it depends on the show dogs lines. I know of several show bred Britts that have done excellent in field trials, often beating the mainly field bred dog. And they also do well in shows.

[jetto]

The show dogs i have seen are not anywhere close to my dog or other brittanys that i have hunted over in the past...I think the breed is somewhat separated

>>>Hmmmm I have a "show" bred dog laying on my couch that would disagree with you. Didn't start trialing til he was 3-1/2. Had minimal bird exposure up til then. Is on his way to his FC and AFC and was #7 gun dog in the East/Central region last year. Has also sired a bitch who had all of her juvenile pts by the time she was 13 months old and is now starting to run broke stakes. Oh and she's a show champion too. Oh and ALL Amateur handled.

not the same breed but we have two show bred Irish Setters. One of them has 3 pts towards his FC/AFC and the young one has puppy/derby placements against Brits, Pointers, Setters, etc. Oh and the older one is a show champion also.

I'm not sure making sweeping generalizations about ANY Breed of dog is a good thing to do. Oh and Rose mentioned Nitro- the show bred dog that recently won our National Amateur Gun Dog Championship. If your theory was true I doubt Nitro would have earned that Iron Dog trophy.

As far as our breed being separated. I have ABC magazines dating back to the 50's. The splitting of our breed is a concern that has been hammered on for as long as there has been an ABC I think. We haven't split yet- I doubt we will. We will always have "extremes" to both sides but the majority of Brits fall in the middle somewhere. You may prefer dogs who don't come from show lines- but never discount them -If you regularly watch the field trial results in the magazine there are plenty of show bred dogs out there succeeding in field trials and many many many more going hunting with their owners on the weekends. Again I will say we all have our own ideas of the "ideal" dog and the more time you spend in the breed the more you learn. And what I've learned is that this is not a breed to make generalizations about. I may prefer getting my stock now from dual/field trial dogs- but I won't ever say a show bred dog with no field lines in them CAN'T be a field trial dog. Too many dogs have proven that theory wrong. Kristi

[bigbirdhunter]

I have two friends that bought brittanys from show breeding breeders who represented them as "dual" and would make good hunters. Both dogs were sent to pro trainers to be finished both dogs were sent home for lack of bird desire and were unable to be broke. Upon inspection one dog had 1 dual champion and 2 junior hunters in a 5 generation pedigree. The other dog was almost entire show champions with one senior hunter and a couple of dual champions back a few genrations. Both dogs were purchased by hunters for the purpose of hunting wild birds. These men made it very clear to the breeders what they were looking for and were assured that they were buying top dogs that would make great hunting dogs based on their breeding. So my own experience disputes your point about my making generalizations. My comments were made based on my own experience or that of my friends who relied on the word of some breeders. I realize that many show bred dogs could or do make great hunters as well as many field bred dogs..but their is no guarantee. In the above case one friend had the dog put to sleep and the other gave his away to a neighbor. So the concern i have is breeders who have show bred dogs but present them to buyers as "hunting dogs or field duals" when in fact they are nothing close to that and the poor buyer ends up owning a dog that won't work for his needs that were plainly spelled out.
In the one case the breeders lies cost the dog his life all because of lies...so much for ethics

[azbrittanyguy]

I have a question. Have standards ever be revised to reflect the modern day dog? I would think that just like with humans, the race / species is getting bigger. Another question. With the Brittany fancy, is it more important to have standard appearance rather than hunting instinct? What was the original purpose of the breed. What caused the split between the French and American Britt? The American seems larger. Is it because hunters in the United States hunted in larger and more open fields? Just asking